A Coffee with Ben Kellert, Pastor, Auctioneer, and Former Mayor!

Grab a coffee and pull up a chair for an unbelievable conversation with Ben Kellert; a pastor, champion auctioneer, and former small-town mayor!

Ben's journey began on a farm in Leduc, Alberta, where he grew up speaking German as his first language and spent his mornings and evenings tending to livestock. After a family move to Wetaskiwin due to his father's health, Ben graduated high school with a clear calling: he was going to be a pastor. Along the way, he joined a church youth group in Edmonton where he met our very own Cam! Cam and Ben take a hilarious trip down memory lane, reminiscing about their Bible college "class clown" antics and skipping lectures in favor of Princess Donuts.

Ben’s pastoral career took him all across Alberta, from Brooks to Barrhead. While serving in Brooks, he launched a groundbreaking handyman program to support single moms, seniors, and folks with disabilities. After navigating a period of severe burnout that led him to take a six-month hiatus in a mechanic shop, Ben pivoted to one of the most unique roles imaginable: the official Chaplain of West Edmonton Mall. From meeting visitors from every corner of the globe to officiating 347 weddings, including one on the bungee jump platform, no two days were ever the same.

Eventually, Ben found his way to the town of Killam, Alberta, where a sudden turn of events saw him step into the role of Mayor. He also shares his passion for the art of auctioneering, having graduated from the Western Canadian School of Auctioneering and winning the Alberta Championship for New Auctioneers in 2008!

This episode is packed with unexpected twists, deep wisdom on handling burnout, and a lifetime of incredible Alberta storytelling. You absolutely will not want to miss it!

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Transcript

0:01

Hi, I'm Ben, and you're listening to Coffee In The Park with Jennifer and Cam. Well, good morning, everybody, and welcome to another edition of Coffee In The Park with Jennifer and Cam. We're coming to you live from the Wall Coffee Roasters in the heart of beautiful downtown Acheson. That's right. It is a monsoon. There are lakes and ducks in the parking lot. The animals are walking in twos all around the park. It's something out there. I know, I think probably somebody out here is building an ark. I'm just not sure where. Is it you? It's not me. But I mean, it's just I've never, I haven't seen this much water. You know what? In a very long time. No. Jennifer, it's wet. Why don't we have a rain gauge outside our office? I don't know. I don't know. But it's wet. Like this is a lot of water for us. It's been raining straight for about three days now. Three days. And heavy rain. That's right. Yeah. But it's supposed to stop soon. I don't know when, but soon. Yeah. So anyway, it is pretty wet out there, pretty rainy. And but that's the way it is. And hey, like I said, we are coming to you live from the Wall Coffee Roasters. So if you hear some noises in the background, machines whirring, people talking, children screaming, there are no children here this morning. I think the rain is keeping people away. The children are all inside. Maybe. Staying inside. I think so, smart. But yeah, it's because we're live. So any noise you hear in the background, it's just because we're live at the coffee shop, which is pretty cool. And we want to tell everybody that Coffee In The Park with Jennifer and Cam is brought to you by Wing Snob Canada. Where the wings, Cam, are fresh, never frozen. Never frozen. With 16 different flavors, 4 different rubs. 16 flavors. We should have a contest if somebody could memorize all 16 flavors of Wing Snob flavors. We'll give them a Wing Snob meal. We'll give them a, I though you were going to say we'll give them a Wing Snob wing for memorizing all. One wing. For memorizing all the flavors and the rubs. And hey, let me tell you folks, these are some of the best wings you will ever have. And they are absolutely amazing. Like Jennifer said, fresh, never frozen. And they have more than wings. They have fries. Parmesan, no, cornbread. Cornbread. I love their cornbread. They're amazing. It's just a great place to eat. And so if you've never been to a wing snob, they have 10 locations, eight in Edmonton, one in Grande Prairie, one in Calgary. How do they find out about them? They can go to www.wingsnob.ca. So thank you, Mike Chadi, for sponsoring Coffee In The Park. We appreciate it. Thank you Wing Snob for sponsoring Coffee In The Park. It's pretty awesome. We love them. Great wings. I'm now hungry for wings, but yeah, we'll have to figure that out. Yeah, we'll figure that out. So anything new? You went away for the weekend. I did, I flew to Victoria for the weekend. Yeah. How was that? It was great, went with some girlfriends. Was it good? Was it wet? It was not. It was cool, but sunny. Yeah. And actually Victoria, they said they were in a bit of a drought. Oh. Yes. Well, unlike us. Unlike us. Well, no, we do need the rain. But it could stop now. But anyway, Victoria was good? It was, but can I just say? Yeah, you can say. Do you remember the days, Cam, when flying was like exciting and great? You came back, you were not excited about your airplane ride. I am never excited about flying anymore. No. I don't know what happened to people. What was it? Everything has just gotten... What is it? What is it about flying that you don't like? It's just gone out the window. It's gone. It's gone. Is it the lack of snacks? No. No. The airplane ride. Did you get snacks? It's the people. The people. There's people on a plane. Listen I know there's people on the plane. What are you doing about that? You can't like that. People. It's the people that try to bring all of their luggage as carry-on. Right. No. You're not allowed. I know, but they try. It has to fit in that little thing. That's the other thing. It doesn't fit in there. You put your suitcase, your carry-on suitcase, above your seat. Yes. But people don't do that. No. No. They don't. Where do they put it? Well, wherever they want. They put it at the front of the plane. They put it in your spot if they're at the back of the plane. So they think they can get it earlier. Oh. Not impressed. Yeah. No. No. So you didn't like that. No. And you said it was squishy. It was like you were packed in there like sardines. Well the seats are a little tight. I think they're doing that. They're making things squishier. They are. I do want to know about the snacks. Did you get snacks? What did you get? You get either sweet or salty. Yeah, sweet or salty. You do? It's soda or pop or no? I drink club soda on the plate. Club soda. Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's cheaped out. Remember when you used to get a full blown meal on the plane? Remember that? It's been so long. You used to get like, will that be steak or chicken? And it's like, I'll take the steak. And you get the full blown meal. Now you get sweet or salty. Sweet or salty, unless you want to pay. Yeah, $32 for a cheese and crackers. Cheese and crackers, I know, it's such a rip off. Flying is such a rip off. I'm not going anywhere. I'm staying home. It's ridiculous. Anyway, well, good. That's good. I went to a wedding. I know you did. Yeah, my cousin's wedding. And we'll hear a little bit about that today. And we'll learn why in just a moment. But it was a lot of fun. I had a lot of, I love my cousins. And we went to this little town called, in Alberta, called Fort Asin, Fort Asin, Fort Asin. Fort Assiniboine? Yeah, that's where we were. Fort Asin..., anyways, like it's little. Like I'm not kidding you. Like there's nobody in Fort Assiniboine. It's like one main street and that's it. Yeah. But it was great. We had, the wedding was in the hockey arena. That's what you said. It was decorated so nice. They should leave that up for hockey. Cause that was pretty cool. And it was so nice. And the ceremony was outside. You said the food was amazing. Oh, the food was amazing. Like it was country food. It was like sweet and salty. But lots of it. Lots of it. It was like unbelievable. It was great. Had a really great time. And I just love being with my family. They're just all so awesome. And my little second cousins or maybe third cousins, or I'm not sure which cousins, they're cousins. I just don't know where they are in the cousin line anymore. There's a lot of them. Yeah, there's a lot of them. But they got married. So that was pretty cool. And yeah, it was a lot of fun. So yeah, but here we are back to wet, rainy, downtown, beautiful downtown Acheson. That's right. Yeah. And I'm very excited about today because today we have a guest that I've known for like, ever, ever. And he's like done so many things in his life. And I'm so very excited and I can hardly wait to get into it. Did we miss anything? No. Okay, then why don't we get into it? Okay. Why don't we do it? Our guest today is Ben Kellert. Welcome, Ben. Welcome, Ben. Thank you. Good to have you. Thank you. Good to be here. And Ben is sitting here in his amazing black Stetson cowboy hat. This is making you jealous. Very. And you should see his belt buckle. I know. He's got the buckle. Like this is the real deal. Did you win that buckle or, no, you bought that buckle? Thanks for bringing that up. I appreciate that. That wrecked the whole thing. But it is a very nice buckle. Thank you. So Ben, so yeah, well, let's start how we normally start. Start from the beginning. Start from the beginning. We need to know about where Ben grew up. Are you from Alberta or are you a transplant? I am not a transplant. I am an Albertan. I was born and raised Southeast Leduc on a farm there. Yeah, just mom and dad. My dad was first-generation Canadian. He was born in Poland, came over when he was eight. Yeah. And settled in that area. My mom was second generation, so her dad came from Germany. And so, yeah, they were kind of across the road from each other, which was really handy. Oh, that makes good for dating. Doesn't it? It's just like across the road. I don't have to go pick her up. She's just across the road. Especially in those days. Yeah. We're talking horseback back then, right, you know? You got to saddle her up and get down there. Yeah, just go across the road, yeah. You can't get a sidecar for a horse. Yeah, don't. So, mom and dad married. My dad was 27. My mom was 17. Come on. This was 1947. Yeah. Those were the days when that was... Well, now you can too, but back then, that was... Yeah. That was, yeah. So, but yeah, no, they experienced their own hardships and so on, through their married life and so on, but through just strength and loving one another and commitment and so on. Was your dad a farmer the whole time? Yeah, you bet. That's what he did. Yeah. Actually, I didn't know that. Yeah. I thought he did something else. But he was a carpenter as well to kinda support farming. Right. Yeah. But yeah, they were married for 67 years. 67 years. Yeah. My dad was 95 when they passed. Holy smokes. That's amazing. Yeah. That's unheard of these days. You don't hear that much anymore. No, no. That's incredible. And so they were farmers. Animals or just grain or wheat or? It was mixed farming. Yeah. So we started out with dairy. So we had some dairy cows. Shipping milk and cream and whatever. Yeah. And then later on, my dad was just, his statement was, I was tired of being tied to the cow's tail. Yeah. As a dairy farmer. And so we went into beef cattle. Pretty much, right? Yeah. We did, a lot of times, we still had like one milk cow or whatever. One or two. For the family, yeah. And we'd milk by hand. So actually, when I was 15, my dad had a couple of heart attacks. And so left me then to do all the chores and stuff. Really? While he was in the hospital. So I do the chores in the morning and milk the cows and so on, feed the calves and then go to school. And then after school, come back from school and do that. Really, I did not know that. Really? Yeah. You know, young people today, no idea. No, but it's true. Today it's like get up, go to school, come home, play video games. Go to school. You were like doing, you were like... It was like a full time job plus school. Yeah. It was, growing up was difficult. How many brothers and sisters do you have? I have two sisters that are older. One that's 13 years older and then one that's two years older. My mom had a couple of miscarriages and a still born in there. So you're the youngest? Yep. Yep. Yep. And the only boy. And the only boy. So it doesn't mean a single thing. No. No. You're just, you're the only boy. Some people say, you know, in my situation I'm spoiled. I was like, no, not at all. But I think your sister's spoil you now. No? No. Okay. Well, hopefully they'll listen to this and we can change that. Hopefully, hopefully this can be a turning point. They're very good to me. They're very good to me. Growing up though, one of the things for me was in our home, it was all German. Really? Oh, so the family spoke German. So my first, my first. Speckensie Deutsch. Klein bisschen. Nein. So yeah. So at home it was all German. So that was my first language. Yeah. Actually going to school then was really difficult for us. Was that tough? Yeah. Because it was English immersion. English immersion. Yeah. I like that. That's good. I didn't know that. Yeah. So you spoke all German. Yeah. So it was difficult going to school, just trying to fit in and trying to learn this new language and so on. So where did you go to high school then? Was it like a rural school where it was a bunch of grades all kind of together in school? Elementary and junior high was in New Sarepta. New Sarepta. Yeah. And then I did grade 10 there as well. Okay. So, yeah, school was difficult for me. And then? Junior high was really difficult, a lot of bullying. I got bullied a ton, is that right? Oh big time. Yeah. It was not unusual for me to come. Because you couldn't speak English? At that and I was smaller. Farm boy? Yeah. Heavier set, you know, or whatever. And so, yeah, so I received a lot of stuff. It was not unusual for me to come home with cuts and bruises and whatever. So, a lot of bullying. And as a result of that, I actually, school really failed for me. Yeah. And I ended up having to return to grade eight. Yeah. So I failed grade eight. Right. I had to redo that, which didn't help with the bullying either. How did you get through the bullying? Or how did you deal with it? It just, yeah, you know what? I had tremendous support at home. Yeah. And so, it just depended on my support from home and so on. And, you know, just did what I could, you know, hid when I had to. Yeah. And prayed that there would be a change at some point. Right. And after my dad had his heart attacks and so on, when I was 17, so I finished grade 10 in New Sarepta. Yeah. And then for grade 11, then we moved to Wetaskiwin and I finished my high school in Wetaskiwin. And that was a lot better. Yeah. That was a lot better. A new group of people, a new group. And so I was able to connect with different folks there. But growing up, think about that. Your dad has a heart attack at 15. You're getting bullied. Yeah. Like mentally, that's a lot. You're having to do all the work on the farm. Like this is amazing to me. Yeah. Wow. It definitely wasn't easy. No, I bet not. Not on any of us. My oldest sister was already gone from home. My other sister was there and my mom. But yeah, milked a couple of cows by hand in the morning and then in the evening again. Yeah. So that was our life. We didn't know any better. We had to do it. You have to get er' done. So when you moved to Wetaskiwin did you move off the farm? Yeah. So you weren't on the farm anymore. My dad wasn't able to handle, keep farming, the work in his physical condition with his health issues and so on. And so we moved to Wetaskiwin. But my dad was a go-getter. I mean, he was, you know, he first thing he did was built a garage in the backyard of the house so that he could be back there tinkering around, building stuff. And then he went back to work a little bit in construction, doing some building and whatnot. But not heavy, you know. So you graduated? Yeah. Graduated from high school in Wetaskiwin. And decided you were going to be a farmer? No. You were done farming. I was done farming. You decided you were going to be? A pastor. Yeah. And that's where you and I met. Yeah. We met in college. It was actually before college. Did we meet before college? Yeah. The look on Cam's face right now. Why do you look at me like... Priceless. She gives me that look like, you don't remember? I'm trying to remember when I met him, okay? Where did we meet? So actually, when I was in high school, yeah, I started coming to the city because my sisters went to Central. Yeah, the church. To the church there and that's where you were and that's where I met you. Then we were involved in a couple of the youth musicals and so on at the church. We were? Yeah. Did you sing? I'm glad this was so meaningful to you. Exactly. It was so meaningful for you that's awesome. So embrassed, I can't even... Keep talking, this hole is getting deeper. That's right. I just like, oh, those were the good old days, weren't they? Yeah, I know. Okay. So we met before college. You betcha. And then we went to college together. Exactly. Yeah, that's right. We were in the same class. Indeed. Matter of fact. I'm sorry for you. It was an exciting back corner. It was. One of my yearbooks, somebody wrote in my yearbook, I don't know about yours, but their thrill of their class was watching Ben and Cam play bumper cars with our desks in the back. And we were now adults. We were not, well, I use that term lightly. We were adults, but it was fun. It was. We had a lot of fun. It was. There was one specific class that we didn't appreciate a whole lot. And so we would actually skip out because our desks were right in the back. Yeah, we picked the back row. And it was right by the door to the kitchen. It was. That's right. So during that class, we would leave, leave early, after attendance was taken. And we'd go to, was it Princess Donut or something? Yeah, Princess Donut across the street. That's right. And we would go over there. That's right! And the one time though, the one time was really bad though, because attendance was taken and we went to the door and it was locked. Oh, they caught on. So we had to turn around and come back. I don't have full memory of that, but I believe it happened. Oh, I'm there. I'm there for you. Yeah, thanks, man. Yeah, no, yeah. No, those were really good days, actually. It was good. We actually, and you and I traveled a little bit, I think. We went to small churches on the weekend and you sang and preached. And I preached, though I didn't sing. No. You had to do all the singing. You have an amazing voice. We'll get into that in a few minutes. But you had an amazing voice. You had, have, still have, I think, have. I haven't heard, well, you did. Anyway, you did. You still do. So I'm just saying. Anyway, all right, so you became a pastor. And that's kind of cool. But this is, to me, this is the part of your journey where, like, the other stuff I didn't know. We could do a whole podcast on kind of the other stuff. But this is where it kind of all began. You met your wife, Tanny. Met Tanny in Bible College. We got married between second and third year. I remember Tanny. It amazes me actually that Tanny. I'm just going to stop. Are you going to actually go there? No, I'm not going to because. Anyway, yeah, no, she loves you. There's no doubt about that. Forty-four years almost. Yeah, 44 years. Yeah. And yeah, okay, you graduated. We graduated. We kind of went our separate ways. And you went to Calgary? Yes. Okay. Yep. So in Calgary then, yeah, that was eight days after graduation that I was being introduced as a new youth pastor in Calgary. And during my time there, it was really, really excellent. Had an opportunity to get involved in street mission and in prison ministry. And so that was incredibly interesting. Way out of my comfort zone. Way out of my comfort zone as a farm boy to be in downtown Calgary and on the streets. And so that was a real education for me. But it's kind of good in a way. And the prison ministry, that just connects me back to, I think I told you, my aunt and uncle worked for Salvation Army. And they were chaplains in the prisons for Salvation Army. And what a, I mean, again, being a rural farm boy, what was that like? A totally different experience. Actually, with you mentioning that, Jen, the chaplain at Spy Hill was a Salvation Army chaplain. And that's who we worked with there in the prison. And so yeah, that was a totally different place for me as well. I only went to prison twice. As a visitor, I hope. He needs to clarify this. As a visitor. Please expand on that. No, it wasn't my deal because the first one I went to was in Nordegg. Okay. And it didn't go well. Okay. Because I was speaking in a... For you or the prisoner? No, I wasn't the prisoner. I was speaking. And I was speaking and I mentioned something about Elvis. And they got one of the inmates a little riled up. And the guards had to settle him down. And I'm cowering in the background thinking I'm going to die. I'm going to die. Anyway. And the second time was I was just touring a prison. I told you it was fine too. But yeah. But you were there. Yeah, it was very cool. Yeah, it was very cool. Okay. From Calgary, you went... We're going to do a quick... From Calgary, you went to... Brooks. Brooks, Alberta. We went to Brooks. Brooks. Did you really? I passed through there for four and a half years. Brooks. I didn't know that. I was... This is an education for you today. It really is. It really is. Yeah, we went to Brooks, and while we were there, actually one of the things that was really exciting for me was the opportunity to be able to start a handyman service in the community through the church. And this wasn't just for church people, this was for anybody in the community. And so it started actually with a lady that had phoned in to one of the radio shows and said, hey, I need somebody to fix a fence for me. And something just touched my heart when that happened. And my dad was, I mean, we're always taught, if you see a need, meet the need. Do whatever you need to do to take care of it. And so I went and fixed a fence for her. And later on that day, it was just like this feeling inside. And I was like, you know what? There's probably other people in our community that have needs. That need help, absolutely. And if they don't get their needs met right away, then it just becomes a bigger deal. Compounds for sure. And so I talked to one of my board members and I just said, listen, man, here's kind of my thought. What if we were to get some of the people from the church together, men, and some of the people from the church, and we were just to offer this? So whatever needs to be done, so we focused on single moms, senior citizens and people with disabilities. And so any of those individuals, so my first contact was with the mayor. I went and talked to the mayor and I said, hey, listen, I have this idea. What do you think of this? And he quickly went and grabbed the lady from FCSS, Family and Community Support Services, and he's like, we need to hear this. Have we got something for you, yeah. And so we shared that. Ben, this is what I love about you. You, this is why I love you. For well, because you're a good friend, but you weren't just an in the church guy. You were a community guy. Yes, community, for sure. It wasn't just your little group here, you're a community guy. Yeah. That's really where my heart is. Yeah. My heart is not in an office. Okay. There's not as many people there that need. Yeah. Of course. That need. And so, from Brooks. So we went out to- There. Where did you go? Barrhead. That's right, Barrhead. My cousins. Yeah. All they did was brag about you. That's all they did, brag about Ben. What a bummer. Ben's the greatest. That's all I heard every Christmas. Ben's the greatest. Ben's the greatest. They loved you. I had actually experienced an incredibly hard and bad burnout in Brooks, to the point where I was actually working in a garage doing mechanics and auto body for about six months because I said, you know what, I'm done with ministry, I'm done with church, I'm done, I'm burned out. So I was working in this garage and doing that. That's when it was during that time. We did have some connections already with the church in Barrhead with pastors there and some of the people. Let's talk about that for a sec. About what? The burnout because- Well, you talked about this. I went through the same thing. I took a year off and went through the same thing. I don't think- People realize. People realize sometimes. You're giving, giving, giving, giving, giving and it's tough. It's tough and you get to a point where for me, I hit a wall. That was it. I just hit a wall. I couldn't do it anymore and I knew I either had to take a break or it wasn't going to end well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was very difficult and yeah, you know, very similar where, you know, your self-esteem is just, there's nothing left. You can't do anything right. You don't have any friends, whatever. And so I'm very grateful for my journey during that time because in the, in the shop that I was working in, doing mechanics and auto body, pumping gas and so on, the individual that I was working for was an absolute angel, an absolute saint. Yeah. Okay. And he would give me a job to do. And then he'd come back a little bit later and he's go, oh man, that looks good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That looks great. I couldn't have done better myself, you know? And first thing in the morning, we'd get together and we'd have coffee together and stale donuts from the little confectionary down the street in this little town. And we'd do that and he'd just continue to encourage. Yeah, wanted to make sure you're okay. Encourage. Yeah, took care of you. Encourage. Just build up. Build up what had been torn down. Yeah, mine was done a little differently. Sort of the same, but a little differently. I went to work at Western Star Trucks in Kelowna on the factory. And because I had no experience, they put me in the harness shop, which is where we built the dashboards. But all the old guys who were on the door way out from retirement worked in the harness shop. Because I knew nothing. I knew nothing. I was not mechanically, I wasn't like you. I didn't know none of that stuff. That's where they stuck me. And those guys made it their mission. They were good guys. They just made it their mission to, well, first of all, they had to tell me every dirty joke in the book. Every dirty joke. And then they'd look at me and wait for a reaction. And I'd just smile and walk away and do my thing. But in a roundabout way, those guys became a really great support system for me. But anyway, that's what you need in those times. Okay, so then you went to Barrhead. Yeah. And one of the ways, just a part of that journey. Yeah. Okay. Was this guy encouraging me. Yeah. And then his father-in-law would come in every so often. And the one day I got to know him a little bit and his father-in-law came in one day and he said, Ben, Ben, Ben. And I was like, oh man, what's coming now? Here we go. Yeah. And he's like, Ben, this is not your calling. Yeah. Well, and you knew that too. But you knew that too. I knew that deep down, but I was trying to suppress that at this time. And so he's like, this is not your calling. Yeah. You need to go where your calling is. And so off to Barrhead. Off to Barrhead. And here's what my relatives told me about you in Barrhead, is that you, where's Ben? Ben would be out in the combine. Ben would be on the tractor. Ben would be with the guys in the field. Where's Pastor Ben? Ben's out on the combine. Ben's in the field. Ben's riding the horses. They loved that. They loved that. You make it sound like I never worked in the office. I don't think you did. I think you were out in the field doing all that stuff all the time, which they loved. They absolutely loved. You know what? That's how you build relationships. Yeah. It's being there with the people, in the good, the bad, the ugly, whatever. And so, yeah, that's just part of who I am, who I was. So, from Barrhead, you went to? Yeah, I was in Barrhead for five and a half years. Five and a half years. And then I went to, there was just a couple of years there where I was kind of between jobs. I did intern work in the church in Slave Lake, in the church in Athabasca, and then was asked to come as the chaplain at West Edmonton Mall. That's right. West Edmonton Mall. Really? That's right. I've always been fascinated by the chapel in the mall. So we better set this up. So West Edmonton Mall is, they say, the largest mall in North America or the second largest mall in North America. And in that mall, there's a chapel or a little church. Yeah. It's still there. Yes. It's amazing. It's across from the hotel. Correct. From the restaurant. L1 or L2. Or one of the Ls. Sorry, L. Yeah. It's across from one of the Ls. One of the Ls. Yeah. One of the Ls. Second floor. And I think it's the only mall, actual mall, that wanted a chapel or a church in their mall. That was part of their mall. Wasn't somebody coming in and leasing space to have a church. Yes, it was. Was it? Yes, it was. Oh, it was. So, yeah. So, Nelson Wolfe was the guy who started it. So, he was walking through the first couple of parts, phases of West Edmonton Mall, and he looked at this place, and he's like, man, a place this size needs a church. Yeah. And so, he got some individuals together, and they were able to rent that space. So, yeah, it is a rented space. It's a cool little space. It is a rented space, yeah. But they've never kicked them out. They've never asked them to leave. No, because they just, God just keeps providing the rent money, and they keep doing it. But what was that like? That must have been such a- A pastor to the mall. Right, a very different experience. Very incredible. Did you have people come in to the chapel who were suffering from- Buying too much. Buying too much, spending too much. Yeah, you know what, not really. No. Not really that. Yeah. But it was so much different than being in a regular church. Yeah, for sure. Because in a regular church, sometimes you can get into a routine. Of course, yes. You know, it's Tuesday, I'll be doing this. Wednesday, I'll be doing this. Here, it's Tuesday, who knows? Because you don't know who's going to walk through your door next. And the needs that they have and what they want to talk about. Yeah. You know, Christmas time was always incredibly difficult at the mall. I can imagine. Because. Of course. It's tough on people. I would get a lot of people that would come into the chapel and say, you know what, I'm walking through the mall. Yeah. And I just realized there's going to be an empty chair at my table. Yeah. Or there's a gift that I don't have to buy. Right. Can I talk to you? Sure. And it wasn't anything that I would say. They just needed to unload. They just needed to share. I think that's so cool. I do too. You were a mall pastor. It was... Can I let you in on a little secret? What's that? I don't know if you know this. But before I came here, back to Edmonton, after leaving Vancouver, I was actually, they actually, I actually was this close. They had, cause WECA was operating it. I was, they phoned and said, would you come be the pastor at the mall? And I, we were this close, this close. And then I decided, no, I'm just gonna retire. I'm, I'm done. So yeah, but yeah. Incredible opportunities there. It's a cool little spot. We met people from all over the world. Yeah. I park right out at that entrance all the time. Walk by it. So he can find his car. Yeah, that's right. I gotta go to the same spot every time. I did 347 weddings. Hokey doodles. In six and a half years while I was there. Really? So the first year and a half, there was an older gentleman. That's like Vegas. You probably know him, Cam, Manley Hodges. Yeah, Manley, yeah, yeah. So he did all the weddings. He was about 85 years old. He was the cutest guy ever, man. He was like 85. And this was his weekly trip to the mall, was to come and do these weddings. And then one day, about a year and a half into my tenure there, I was there for eight years. And a year and a half in, he phoned me one day and he's like, Ben, he said, my health is failing. I can't do this anymore. So you're going to have to do this. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. Like I needed another list. And so from that point on, yeah, I did 347 weddings. So six and a half years. You're right, it's Vegas like. Did you do them in the mall? In the chapel? The majority of them were in the chapel. I did seven on the Santa Maria. The boat, the big ship. The boat, the ship. I did a few in some of the theme rooms. So it was my way of seeing a theme room without having to pay. Yeah, cause the hotel has theme rooms. And then I did one the last March that I was there. And if I never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever do another wedding in that location, I am totally fine with that. That was on the platform of the bungee jump. You didn't. And did you bungee jump? Are you serious? Did they? You had to be up there! They did. They did. Oh my gosh. So 116 feet in the air, right? And they strap you all up before you go up the stairs. And then before you even go out onto the platform, they snap you, they hook you up. And so, yeah, we're up there and every so often you can feel this thing weave below you. But to give context, so our listeners understand, West Edmonton Mall has a massive indoor water park, wave pool, and in that was the bungee jump. So you're up there with the couple. 116 feet in the air. I'm there with two guys from the mall, the best man, the maid of honor, and the couple. That's it, that's it, right? And so, you know, I do the wedding, announce them husband and wife, you know, prayer blessing, the kiss. And then they go, yeah, so they did, they went tandem, so there's like a foam mattress they put between them. Yeah. And they just embrace. And cause otherwise when they get to the bottom, they'd slap. Slap together. So that wouldn't be a good start to your wedding. No, that'd be a bad way to start. So yeah, so then they jumped and I took the stairs. You didn't jump. It's like, we'll sign the documents. Did they want you to jump? I don't care. Isn't that something? It wouldn't matter. Yeah, you weren't doing it. Yeah, I love it. This is amazing. Isn't that something? I've never had, I've never done a lot of weddings. I never had an experience like that. So that's pretty amazing. And I did a few that were outside of the mall, like the Devonian Gardens and Fort Edmonton... Okay, so you're at the mall. You leave the mall. Where do you go? Westlock. Westlock. To Youth For Christ. Oh, that's right. So I ran a youth center there. Ran a youth center there. That's right. Reaching out to youth in the community. Okay. And along with that, we also opened for, I think it was three years or whatever, we opened a women's shelter as well. Adeara. No. No? In the county of Barrhead. Oh, in Barrhead. Yeah. Okay. We had a women's shelter there. But you also were a big part of Adeara. Yes. That was in, when I was just after Barrhead. Right. And the reason I bring up Adeara is because we've had Lori on the podcast and we sell Recovery Coffee for Adeara here. Here at, Michael sells it from the coffee shop. Okay. Went to Westlock. Then from Westlock, you went to? Killam. Okay. Now there's a story here. This is the one I like. Killam. You were the pastor of the church. Yes. But. For nine years. For nine years. I was the pastor of the church there. But you had another, I don't know if I call it a part-time job or you had another job. Yes. You were the. Mayor. The mayor of Killam. Yeah. So not even two years into my tenure in Killam. Yeah. I was being sworn in as the mayor. As the mayor. In Killam, which was totally unexpected to me because that was not my desire at all. Yeah. Going into that election, I wanted to get to know the people of the community. I'd only been there for about a year and a half and so on. And I wanted to get to know the community and so on. So I thought, well, I'll run for council, right? And that'll be a good way to get in and so on. And so the mayor that was there, he wasn't running again. And so I had a meeting with him just to kind of run through some things, get some ideas, get some thoughts, get some kind of pick his brain, get some wisdom and so on. And when we finished our meeting, our interview, our meeting, he said to me, he said, and he already had my sheet because I was asking him to sign my nominations form. Right. Yeah. And so he says to me, he says, Ben, he says, I think you have all the tools to do the job as mayor. And if you would run, he said, I'd be honored to sign your paper. And with that, he's got his white out out and he's whiting out councillor and he's writing in mayor. And I'm like, wait a second. I didn't even agree to this yet. And so it was just, it was an incredible experience for me. Just, yeah, so I handed in my forms and my sheets and so on. And then later on that afternoon, so all the forms had to be in by noon. And later on the afternoon, I messaged the CAO at the town and I said, so like, what's my next step? Like, what do I do next? Do I start, you know. Knocking on doors? Getting brochures and signs and whatever. Right, right. And a short time later, I got an email back from her and just simply said, congratulations, I look forward to working with you over the next four years. He was acclaimed. There was no other, nobody ran against you. No. You were the mayor. Yeah. You got to love it. That's the best. You weren't even going to be the mayor. If somebody ran against you. Maybe you might have lost. I doubt it, but you might have. Yeah. But now, you don't even have to. You don't have a choice. You're the mayor. That's right. You don't have to spend money on brochures. You don't have to go door knocking. I was done within a day, you know. You're the mayor. I love it. I tell you, it was one of the greatest experiences of my life. How many years were you mayor? Six and a half years. Six and a half. Holy smokes. And why? Why was it so great? You know what? A big part of it is the community itself. The people were amazing. Had lots of great opportunities, including speaking at the school and speaking at different events, judging 4-H speaking contests and those kinds of things. But one of the biggest things I think is the people you work with. Yeah. And I had a phenomenal council. Yeah. Our CAO, our Assistant CAO, the most professional individuals I have ever met. Yeah. And just an incredible team. The team we had, they were concerned about the community, not about their own agenda. Right. And we just had a wonderful relationship. Right. Of honor and respect around that table. Wow. And it was an amazing experience. Fabulous. You don't hear that much anymore, do you? Not in politics anymore. Not very much, but that's really incredible. Yeah. Great, great, great crew. Still in touch with a number of them. Yeah, sure. And it's just, yeah, it's fabulous. So six years? Six and a half years. Six and a half years, you were the mayor. Yeah. And the second election was like the first. Nobody ran against you. I just love that. By acclamation as well. You don't even have an out. You're in. That's it. Yeah. But they must have loved you. And I appreciate it. Nobody wanted to run against you because they knew you're doing a great job. And that's fantastic. Yeah. That's really good. Okay. So now, that came to an end, but it's because you left Killam and you went to Barrhead. But you weren't done being mayor in Killam, so you had to resign. Yeah, I did. As the mayor. That's correct. Yeah. And I hear that, that was hard. That was really hard. It was very hard. Yeah. It was very hard. There's, I'll admit that meeting with the CAO, there was tears on both sides. Yeah, for sure. You know, and because it was such a great experience. And part of that, I mean, was things that I got to do, you know, going to the Alberta municipalities and right. And one of the things that I really enjoyed while I was there. And, and as the mayor, was, I was the very first elected official to sing the national anthem at the legislature. Okay. Really? So I want to talk about this. For the beginning of their meetings for the week. Yeah, yeah. So way back at the beginning of this podcast, we talked about you and I traveled a little bit and you, you sang because I couldn't and you were amazing. You have a great voice. You have sang the National Anthem at a lot of events, like public events, hockey games, legislature. Like, you're the guy. Edmonton Eskimos. Edmonton Eskimos. Commonwealth Stadium. Yeah, I was able to sing at Eskimos Saskatchewan Rough Riders game. Oh, that's a good game. Saskatchewan. Yeah, that's what I like. So that was one of my loves. Yeah. That was one of my bucket list things, was to do some of these things. I had the opportunity to sing and travel with a choir and went to New Zealand and Fiji. Wow. And travel and sang there. You have a great voice. You still have a fantastic voice. Okay, so you went back to Barrhead. Went back to Barrhead. That's where you are now. Yep. The relatives were very happy. They phoned me, matter of fact. He's coming back. They phoned and said, Ben's coming back and things are going to be great. Then I went out there for dinner and you were coming that day and it was like, Ben's back, Ben's back. It's like nobody's said that when I moved back from Vancouver, but anyway. There's a piece we've missed though. What? The auctioneering piece. Yeah. I'm getting there. You're getting there? Yeah. Okay. Because I'm going to say he's a pastor, he's a mayor, he's a singer, and he is also one other thing, he is, you are an auctioneer. Yes. Like a bona fide live auctioneer. Yes. And you do that? Yes. Why? How? When? Like when did you like- Have time. Yeah. When did you have time? When did you wake up and go, I think I want to be an auctioneer. And I understand you won a very prestigious auctioneering award. Yes. You are like the best auctioneer in the whole wide world. Well, not quite. Not quite. Okay. So, the way it started, well, with being raised on a farm. Yeah. My dad would take me to all the different auctions in the area. So, at that time, there was an auction in New Sarepta, in Leduc, in Wetaskiwin, in Camrose, in Ponoka, of course, and so on. And so my dad would take me to all those different auctions. Right. And I fell in love with the chant of an auctioneer. And I was like, as a little boy, I was like, one day man, one day, one day I want to do this. Were you like at home in the barn like auctioning off the dairy cows when no one was listening or? Practicing. Practicing. Maybe. Maybe. That's right. So yeah, so this was just kind of, you know, I've always stayed in touch with the Ag business and what's happening with that. You love that, yeah. And, you know, always been interested in auctions and so on. And then actually 2006, I was out at Barrhead. Yeah. Helping out with working cattle and stuff there. And on the way out of town, on my way back to Edmonton, because that's when I was at the... The mall.... Chapel. Yeah. And picked up a newspaper and in the newspaper was an advertisement for the Western Canadian School of Auctioneering, which was at that point owned by Dalton Wolfe, who had Wolfe Auctions out of... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.... Just out of Weslock. Yeah. And so I thought, you know what, if I don't do this now, I never will. Right? So I went to the school, that was November. It was a 10 day, or 11 day, 10 hour day course. Where was it? In Westlock. And so you had to go there for 11 days? Yep. All day long you went to school? Yep. Yep. Yep. And so went there, graduated from the school, and almost immediately got some opportunities with a couple of different auction companies in Barrhead and Westlock and so on. And then that was 2006, 2008. I won the Alberta Championship for New Auctioneers with the Auctioneers Association of Alberta. Like I said, best in the world right there. Yeah. Well, Alberta. Alberta, yeah. Close enough. We think we're the world. My world. Our world. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And so, yeah, so that opened a lot of doors for me with selling at different companies even here in Edmonton. Yeah. So different companies here in Edmonton give me opportunity to sell and so on. And so yeah, it's just been great. Yeah. Then when we were back in Westlock, we had our own company there for about six or seven years. Yeah. We did regular sales every Tuesday night, actually right at the back end. There was a bay at the back end of the youth center there, and we did auctions every Tuesday night there. I love it. At the back of the youth center. That's the best. Yeah. Well, we actually used it for a fundraiser. Yeah. Because people would donate items and say, hey, just put it to the youth center or put it to the women's shelter. Right. And so that was great for us as well. It was a fundraiser for us. And then we did farm sales, farm auctions, real estate auctions, right from Lac La Biche to Evansburg. Wow. So has the day of the auctioneer changed with online? Oh yeah. Big time. Yeah. Do they do? Now, I know you do many, many charity auctions, and I've had the privilege of helping you. What do they call me? I'm the... Ring man. The who? Ring man. Ring man. I thought you said rain man. Bid catcher. I was going to make a comment there. The ring man. Right. Ring man or bid catcher. So my job, yeah, is to make sure you know that somebody's bid. And I get a little, you and I. And you make sure I know. Yeah. You definitely make sure. There is no mistake with anyone in the room. Just saying. It's a lot of fun. So the day of the auctioneer, when COVID hit, it changed everything. Yeah. When we moved to Killam, I actually was invited to come and work with Doug Johnson Auctions out of Camrose. Yeah. But when COVID hit, of course, that kind of shut down. And so everything's pretty much online. And so I do still do some live auction with Michener Allen here in Acheson. Okay. And we've had Mrs. Michener on, Jan Michener. Yeah. She's amazing. Yeah. Absolutely amazing. And so I do that and then I do quite a number of charity auctions. Yeah, you do. Matter of fact, you're leaving here to do one this afternoon. That's correct. Yeah, that's right. And I did one last Thursday. And so last year I did, I think about 12 charity auctions from Slave Lake to Red Deer. Can I just say, I'm sad that we don't have the old-fashioned auction. Because you used the word I never thought of when you started talking about it, the chant. There's something about that. Oh yeah. There's something about that. I love listening to you. I love it. Even though I'm trying to see who's bidding, I'm listening to you. I love it. I never usually hear the amount because I'm just listening to the rhythm of what you're doing. And it's amazing. And I think it's incredible. And I feel sad that we're losing that. Yeah. And I think the charity auctions, that'll still be here. Yeah, for sure. In our area in Barrhead, there's an auction company there. He still does some on-site sales. Yeah. And that's great. Yeah. Okay. So here we are. We're on the podcast. Can you give us a little example? Okay. So can we auction off my cell phone? Okay. If we were at the auction right now, this is my cell phone. This is like an iPhone 16. All right. Highfalutin. Highfalutin. Isn't he though? Yeah. Still paying it off. So whatever money we make for it goes to pay it off. Okay. Can you give us a little? Okay. Here we go. I've bid 500 now, five and a quarter. 500 now, five and a quarter, five and a quarter, five and a half, five and a quarter, five and a half, now 600. Five and 600, 600 now, 650. 600 now, 650, 650 now, 75, 675 and 700, 675 and 700, 700 now, 800, 800, now, 9, 8, now, 9, 9, 9, 9, 900, 900, now, 1,000. Just bid on my own phone. Sold it.$900. You bought it. Is that great? It's so great. It's so great. It's just so great. I love it. I enjoy it. I can listen. You're so good at it and you are. Some people can and some people can't and you can. Yeah. I don't think I could. I'd love to actually. I'd love to learn that. He pretends to sometimes. I pretend sometimes. That's right. I do. I do pretend. Then I think of Ben and go, just stop. Ben's so good at it. It's so amazing. It's a joy. It's a passion. I enjoy it every time I do a sale. It's a great time. Now with the charity sales, it's a matter of just being able to help out these charities. Helping them out and raise some money. We were talking about that before we recorded. You said, what was the statement you made? Charity auctions, it's not about? It's not about what you're taking home. It's about what you're supporting. And I love that. We've seen people over the years, they have paid above and beyond for certain items. Well, you're just telling us about some pies you auctioned that went for?$20,000. No, $40,000. Pies.$40,000 for two apple pies. Apple pies. Yeah. Unbelievable. It's great. The thing that you see with charity auctions is that people are still incredibly generous. Yes. Even last week, I sold six items and the total, I think, was $31,700 or something like that on six items. Wow. People are just generous. They see a need. Again, they see a need. They want to meet that need. Yeah, sure. You get to help them do that. Very cool. I think that's exciting. That's really incredible. Yes, very cool. Very cool. I could just talk to Ben forever. Forever. I'm serious. We are winding down and, you know, there's an area I want to touch on, just briefly. And I know you. We've rekindled the friendship since I've come back. And I appreciate you and Tanny so much. And get to see you a little bit more now at different things, weddings and that kind of stuff. And I appreciate you. You talked earlier about being a pastor, hitting the wall and burning out. And it's not easy. You're dealing with people every day. You're dealing with their tragedies every day. And walking people through their tragedies. Good and good times as well, but a lot of tragedies. A lot of bad yeah. And you've experienced that lately yourself. And I just, you know, I want to touch on that a little bit. You've, in your own family, you've gone through some pretty difficult times. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about what happened there, and your son, and that kind of stuff? And just, because I want people to know that you're human too. Yeah. And we're human. And we're up there, we're public personas at times, but we're still human beings. And you went through a very difficult tragedy. Yeah. Yeah. We were incredibly excited last fall. Yeah. Because we were looking forward to welcoming our fifth grandbaby. Yeah. We have four right now. We have three girls and a boy. My son has a boy and a girl. My daughter has two girls. And so we were tremendously excited. We're going to be having another grandson. Yeah. And we were pretty stoked. He was due on Christmas day. He was going to be our little Christmas baby. Yeah. And on November 9th, our daughter-in-law went into labor and deliver. I just make it short as I can. Yeah, yeah. But on November 9th, she went into labor and delivered our little boy, little shepherd. And he was born at 33 weeks. And so, yeah, so he was in the NICU at the Misericordia. Yeah. And, you know, things were seemed to be all right, you know. Yeah. And our daughter-in-law was doing great. She had bounced back, you know, very, very well. Yeah. We went to see her the next day. He was born on Sunday. We went on Monday. And we were like, how are you doing? And she's like, I feel great, man. I can do squats. She's doing squats beside the, beside the incubator and stuff. And, and so she was, yeah, doing good. And then Wednesday, her mom came from Winnipeg and they spent a day and a half, couple of days together or whatever. And Thursday night, my son called her cause he was back in Fort McMurray. He was in Fort McMurray. They called each other and they FaceTimed and they were talking and chatting. And she was like, man, I can't believe how well I've bounced back and things are well, you know. And then the next morning, her alarm went off and her mom couldn't figure out why she wasn't turning her alarm off. And so she went into the room and our daughter-in-law was non-responsive. And she passed away, five days after Shep was born. And so, we actually buried her on her 32nd birthday. Young mom. So we kind of took up the task of caring for, taking care of our little grandson then, because our son Josh was back in Fort McMurray. And so, yeah, so we took care of little shepherd. But one of the things, just backing up just a smidge, and that is at the funeral for our daughter-in-law. You know, we each did our tributes and so on, and a good friend of ours spoke. And then there was a time of music and worship. And during that time of music, then my son pulls out his ear phones or whatever, his in-ear monitors out of his pocket, and he's playing with them. And I thought, what are you doing, man? Like, that's kind of disrespectful. And next thing you know, all of a sudden he puts them in his ears. And he scoots by his sister, and brother-in-law goes up to the front. And when they finished that song, he grabbed the guitar from the pack and the guitar from the guitar player. And he went ahead and he led. The song is called Reckless Love Of God. He led that. And after the fact, we asked him, we said, like, why did you do that, son? Why did you do that? Why did you feel you needed to do that? And this was his reply. He said, mom and dad, I needed to declare to the whole world that God is still kind. Through it all. Yeah. So, yeah, so after that, we came back. We spent pretty much every day. My wife was there pretty much every day. Yeah. She missed five days out of two months. Yeah. And then on January 6th, Shepherd passed away. Yeah. And we lost him as well. And so my wife, Tanny, was holding him when he passed. And then after he passed, then I was holding him for a bit. And I said, you know, I said, I said, I don't want anybody else transporting him all the way back to Fort Mac, spending five hours with him. Yeah. Is there any way that I can transport him back? And so they were able to work it out. Long story short, they were able to work it out. And so I had my little boy in the back seat of my truck. Yeah. In a little tiny white casket. And I don't know who the company is in Edmonton, but there's a funeral company that provides little caskets for babies. Yeah. Whoever you are, if you're listening, thank you so much. Yeah. Because it rocked my world when I saw it. Because I thought other people told me that it would just be like a little cardboard box or whatever. Right. Beautiful little casket. And I pulled in there and here's this little white casket and put them in the back of my truck and just said, road trip with Nona and Grandpa. Yeah. And went back home. So. You and I texted a lot during that time. And I just wanted you to tell that story, because again, I think sometimes people think that people who are out there, and doing what you do, you don't go through it like a lot of people do, and you do, and Ben you not only had to take care of your family, it was your daughter-in-law, your son's wife, here you're the pastor, but now it's your family, you have to care for them, there's other grieving people around there, and you have to take care of them, and I often used to say, who takes care of you, and I know you have a good support group around you. We actually, the two days after Ayla passed away, I preached in my church in Barrhead. And my family phoned me and told me, and it was like, wow. And I just say that because folks, we all go through deep waters sometimes, very deep waters, and sometimes the people that are there to lead us through some of those deep waters go through those deep waters themselves. And I'm not trying to end the podcast on a downer, but rather an upper in that, you know, like, first of all, I want you to know, I admire you, I'm so glad you're my friend. I'm just so glad and blessed to have you in my life. And I just think you're amazing in everything you've done. And I just want you to keep going. And don't stop and tell your story everywhere you go, whether in a normal voice or a singing voice or an auctioneer's voice. Tell your story wherever you go. I think it's awesome. You haven't given up. Appreciate it. Love you and Tanny a ton. Yeah, thanks. Wow. 57 minutes. Are we going to ask the final question? I don't know. Yeah, I want to. Do you want to? Yeah, because I want to hear his answer. You want to hear his answer? Yeah, I do. Go ahead. Ben, what is the best piece of advice that you want to share that you've been given either personally or throughout your career that you carry with you to this day? I think the best piece of advice would be to never give up. Yeah. Never give up on your dreams. Yeah. Never sell yourself short. See, in being bullied in school, yeah, that was very difficult because I thought there was nowhere for me to go. However, when I started going with my sisters to church, there was a number of people that really encouraged me and inspired me. Yeah. And one of those people is sitting across the table from me right now. And I'll never forget it. He encouraged me to be who I am and that I could be everything I wanted to be. And so I encourage young people today, never lose sight of your dreams. Never lose sight of your dreams and never sell yourself short. That's right. Because we can do that. That's right. It's amazing. And it doesn't matter how long those dreams take to be fulfilled. Never lose sight of them. Yeah. Because they're there. And there's opportunity all around us. So. And if you want to go to auction school when you're 60, go to auction school. Do they still have it in Westlock? Do they still have it? No. They don't. Oh, there's a couple of online ones and then there's some in the city. I was thinking of. You can do it online. Where's Cam for 10 days, he's gone. I'll just follow Ben around everywhere. He can teach me how to do it. Yeah. There you go. It's great. Well, Ben. This has been awesome. I know. Love you, man. Absolutely incredible. Hey, I know. We've gone a little long today, but that's okay. It was a great podcast. Yeah, it was a great podcast. Don't forget everybody to tell everybody about this podcast. Everybody tell everybody. That's right. Tell your friends. Tell your neighbors. Tell your co-workers. Tell your enemies. If you don't have any friends, make one so you can tell them about this podcast. If you're sitting there alone, after you've listened to this, you've got no friend, turn to the guy or the person next to you and go, hey, you should listen to this podcast. Then they're going to be your friend because they listen. Go, that's a great podcast. And so do that. And the other thing you need to do is... You need to subscribe. Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. You're getting really good at saying that. Yeah, I'm getting... It's my Auctioneering. It's your Auctioneering. I'm not even subscribing. Anyway, subscribe because then it'll just come up. And you won't miss an episode. And you won't miss an episode. And the last thing we want to say is Wing Snob. If you don't know what to do for dinner tonight, check them out. Check out Wing Snob. 16 flavors, four rubs. Fresh never frozen. Fresh never frozen. Not even kidding about that. We're not even kidding about that. That's the real deal. It's true. Anyway, thank you everybody. Thank you, Ben, for driving in from Barrhead. Thanks everybody for listening and we'll see you all next week.