A Coffee with Darren Hinkel from The Black Dirt Company

Join us for a coffee and chat with Darren Hinkel, owner of The Black Dirt Company in Spruce Grove, as he shares his inspiring journey from transitioning out of banking to taking over and growing the family business in landscaping. Discover how they have driven innovation and expansion and highlighted the significance of getting involved and giving back as a business owner within the local community. Gain insights into their strong dedication to family and community support.

Transcript

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Well, good morning, everybody, and welcome to another edition of the ABA Coffee In The Park. My name is Cam Milliken, and I am here with my co-host extraordinaire, the amazing Jennifer Herrick, the executive director of the Acheson Business Association. Good morning, Jennifer. Good morning, Cam. How are you this morning? Oh, man, I'm doing good. It's a good day today, and we want to tell everybody that we are coming to you from the Wall Coffee Roasters in the heart of beautiful Downtown Acheson. That's right. Hey, Jennifer, we came off an amazing weekend. Cam, we had the gala. Yes. And boy, what an event. It was an event. It was fantastic. And you might hear it in our voices a little bit because we're still recovering. Yeah, I'm a bit scratchy still. But we had an amazing weekend. Tell us a little bit about it, Jennifer, because people want to know what went on. We had a sold out event of over 300 people at the Double Tree Hilton, West Edmonton. They did a fantastic job. We had a beautiful four course meal.The meal was incredible We celebrated and recognized so many people. It was. No, it was. Yeah, it was. What do you call those things? Those short ribs? Short ribs. Unbelievable. They were great. Well, it was a harvest theme. So that's what we did. It was a harvest farm to table meal and it was fantastic. It was a beautiful night. We gave away a bunch of awards. We ended it off with the Lifetime Achievement Award to Wes Wall, co-founder and CEO of Genics. That's right. So it was a really, really great night. Jennifer, thank you for everything you did for that and all the work you put into it. And we had a lot of fun and it was really great. But today we're here and we get to do another podcast and I'm really excited about that. Tell us about our guest. Well, before we do that, we want to thank our gold corporate sponsors, which include the MyShak Group of Companies, Genics and of course, Parkland County. We couldn't do what we do at the Acheson Business Association without these businesses, so we like to thank them for their continued support. Yeah, and we appreciate everything they do for us. Now, Jennifer, we can talk about our guest. Tell us about our guest because I'm pretty excited this morning. Well, this guest, actually Cam, joined us at our gala on Saturday night. Our guest this week is Mr. Darren Hinkel, who is the owner operator of The Black Dirt Company and Spruce Grove. The Black Dirt Company, I love that name. That's awesome. Welcome, Darren. Well, hello, you two. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah, good to have you. The Black Dirt Company. I love that. That's an awesome name. That's just really cool. So Darren, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up? How did that all begin? Honestly, just I'm a small town kid from Stony Plain, Alberta. My parents, they started the Black Dirt Company. And of course, when I went to school in Stony Plain, so I went to Stony Plain Central. That's what it was named at the time. And my parents basically were farmers and contractors. And so all I know about them is that they woke up very early, they worked very late, and they worked very hard. And so as I'm going to school, I was in charge, right? I was in charge of myself. And that's not because they weren't good parents. They were busy working. And there's a lot to be said for that. So yeah, Stony Plain kid, I grew up on a farm. So I was always around heavy equipment. I was always around that hard work mentality. And then when I finished school, I decided I wanted to be the furthest thing away from my parents as I could be. Like most kids. Yeah, like most kids. Yeah, that's right. I don't know if I was rebelling or what the case was. Yeah, do you have any brothers or sisters? I have a sister, yes. She's older by five years. Yeah, her name is Amy. She lives in Langley, BC. Oh, good old Langley. Yeah, awesome. That's great. Yeah, I mean. So yeah, so you got to the point where you thought, I don't want to do that. That's right. That's right. I wanted to maybe wear a suit and tie, work downtown Edmonton a little bit, maybe run a bank or run a branch of a bank. So I worked for Service Credit Union for 10 years. And I was a bank manager and I was at that fork in the road, actually, where I was going to either work my way up in management, right. So there's different levels of management, small branches, medium sized branches, large branches. And a lot of times branch managers, once they get to that large branch, which I wasn't quite there yet. I was well on my way though. I was only 29 years old at the time. So I was considered very young to be in that situation. So the hard work paid off, that's something I learned from my parents. But that fork in the road either I continue on that path and maybe end up even at the head office level where maybe I would be at a, maybe be working with the executives of the company. That's kind of where I thought I was going. And is that what you wanted to do? Is that where you? I did, I did, but I got thinking a little. Like if I'm going to work that much or that hard, sometimes the question is, what if you just did it for yourself at one point? But I didn't have those opportunities slapping me around. So I was safe, I was comfortable. I liked the job, I liked the company, I liked everything. But my parents actually called me one day and they were trying to sell the company. But they didn't know really who or how or what, or any of that. So they asked me for some advice. So I dug into the financials and it's a small company. It's a small company with a lot of hard work put into it, a little bit of promise, for sure. And I was at that fork in the road. So long story short, I said, I'll leave Service Credit Union, I'll come work for you guys and I'll help you sell it. So let's talk about that for a second, because I imagine that was a pretty major life. Like you don't just go, I'm leaving and I'll come help you. Tell us about your own process of figuring that out a little bit. Well, I was not certain that what I was doing was correct or right. I didn't know I was going on the right path. I didn't know if this was going to be a major turning point in my life where I couldn't come back if I should I want to. Even though the door was left open. When I resigned from the company, they were very good. They didn't walk me out, none of those things. I still worked out, I gave them a month's notice, and I worked to the very last day, and they took me out for lunch, they thanked me for my service and everything like that. They said, just so you know, that door is always open for you should you come back. Wow, that's great. So it was, it was amazing. And so when I left, I was uncertain because of course, because of course I had to put in the work, not because I came in at a high level, I had to come in, right? And the only way my parents would have it is, you start at the very, I guess for lack of a better word, you start at the bottom. You start at the bottom. It's kind of funny, Jennifer, because we've interviewed a few guests now, and there's a few stories like this. You know what? Absolutely. It is that it's an entrepreneurial spirit, but it's also that mentality of family business. You don't just get handed the keys to the kingdom. Yeah. Career change or whatever, you're in the family business, you don't become CEO as the first job. That's right. Yeah. You start at the bottom. So that's interesting. And your parents thought this is the way you got to learn the business. That's right. So were you married at the time? I was married. And how did your wife feel about this change? Because you went from sort of security to now you're... Honestly, she's the biggest supporter. Wow, that's great. Like, if you want it, Darren, you're going to go and you're going to do it, you're going to do it well, go get it. Yeah. You know, so there was no issues there. Great. Right. And the only challenging part was, of course, you know, in the summer months, I was a yard attendant when I started. Right. And I was helping customers, whether it's five gallon pails, whether it's, you know, loading a half share of another dirt, you know, the hustle and bustle, get up early, stay late, grease your machine, all that stuff. But all while trying to manage the business end a little bit too, and try to help. And then winter came, of course, now I'm working odd days as much as I'm doing nights. And I found myself cleaning a lot of the parking lots of the financial institutions that I competed with back in my day. So that's probably a good way to tell us a little bit about what your company does, because everybody's like, okay, so what does this guy do? Tell us a little bit about the company so we just kind of understand, and then we'll pick it up from there and go on. So The Black Dirt Company, first and foremost, we're a landscape supply company. So we have a retail landscape center in Spruce Grove, just a few minutes west of Acheson. But we're also a trucking company, so we deliver bulk materials in our dump trucks. And then we really hang our hat on our name. We're The Black Dirt Company, that name actually happened all by accident and all by mistake 30 years ago. Now you got to tell us the story. You can't just say that. You got to tell us the story. So basically what it is, so my dad being a farmer and a contractor, he worked for one of the landowners here. His name is Gil Cook. And actually they're just currently developing that piece of property on Campsite Road right across from the Superstore in Spruce Grove. So that's really exciting. But at the time, it was farmland, and Gil wanted to strip the topsoil, screen it, and have it taken off site, so that he could start thinking about development and things like that. So he asked my dad, who was the farmer that contracted to him at the time, would you screen a little bit of dirt? And so my dad did. But of course, my dad, having 300 things on the go at every given time, he had my cousin Bobby working for him at the time. And so Bobby was working up the land, stripping the land, and then putting it through a screener, and then we were selling the dirt. But when people are coming in and asking, buying dirt from us, and that's great. But my dad felt like he needed a shack, needed maybe a land line. Now that sounds pretty archaic, but that's the way it was. So when he was having lunch one day, Bobby was having lunch one day, and minding his own business, the phone rings. They're not like they were open for business, per se. They were just doing stuff. And the phone rings, and he felt compelled to answer the phone, and he stutters and spits out, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like The Black Dirt Company, how can I help you? I love it. And we took it from there. I love it. That has got to be the best story of how a name came about. That is, people spend thousands of dollars on marketing companies, and it's just that, the first thing that comes out of your mouth. I love it. That's fantastic. That's so sorry. Yeah, that's just great. Anyways, but you know, as you're screening dirt, and of course, now we've figured out a name, obviously, and people started asking for things like stand or rock chips, or wood chips, or mulch, and just landscaping materials. That's kind of what it progressed to. So we basically, that all happened by accident too. So of course, when a customer asks, you can get some sand, that my parents always would say, well, we'll figure it out, we'll find a way. And before you know it, you have topsoil, you have sand, you have mulch, you have compost or manure. And before you know it, you got a garden mix, a garden blend that you're known for. And then Lois Hole from Holes Greenhouse was a huge fan of Keith Coney and The Black Dirt Company. So she promoted us. In fact, they used most of our materials for many of their years. Wow. That's pretty cool. It is cool. You have an advocate like that on your side. For anybody, I don't know, Cam, if you ever met Lois Hole, but she was a fantastic lady. Right. She was wonderful. Yeah, I hear so many good things about her. So yeah, so that's pretty cool that she'd be your advocate for that. I mean, any business would sure would die to have someone like that on your team, on your side. 100%. And so that we were so proud of that. And then, of course, you know, businesses as they evolve and logistics become a part, you know, you know, and of course, Lois isn't with us anymore. And I never even had a chance to meet with her, but I've heard nothing but good things. And it's just so inspiring to hear these kind of stories about successful business owners and people. Okay, so the mulch, the dirt, all that stuff, that's seasonal. Here in lovely Alberta. Yes. Where it snows half the year. Today it feels like it's gonna snow. And so what do you do? Do you just, do you head to Hawaii for the next six months? Or? Well, you know, when you have all that heavy equipment and that overhead, you can't pay for it in six months. You know, you have to diversify, you have to pivot, you have to change. Mentally, you have to change your mindset, right? So we know how to make money when it comes to spring, summer and fall. Winter, different story. Right. Okay. But winter, we do snow removal, and we do commercial snow removal, and we're pretty selective on how we do it and who we do it for because it's a very tough world, tough business. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can only imagine, I mean, we never know from one winter to the next, how much snow we're even going to get. Exactly. You know, so for you guys, it's how do you even plan for that? How do you even set your goal for that? Basically, you know, that's a great question because my parents decided to, now that Darren's involved, we'll go to Yuma, Arizona. This is why parents have kids. So that one day they can go to Yuma and we run everything for them. Yeah. So I took over the snow removal and not knowing that, actually, this is a funny story. So this is the truth. So they gave me, they gave us our customer list for snow removal. Right. So not knowing some were first night, some were the next day, some were the day after, and some were the day after that. Oh, right. Right. Right. But I did it all the first night. Me and, and I am embarrassed to tell you, some staff that are no longer with us for good reason. Because we worked like dogs. Yeah. We worked like dogs. And every time it snows two inches, we do the snow. And it snowed in 2010, guys. I'm sure it was record snowfall. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So we went out and out and out and out. And we made, actually, was one of the very few years we were profitable from snow removal because we went out so often. Yeah. Right. And because it was we had so much snow that if the snow wasn't removed, people weren't opening their doors. Wow. That's the truth. Yeah. That's how much it snowed. What a great reputation. I know. Right. It's like people just phone and I hear you remove this snow in 10 minutes after it snows. Yes. Can you be at my place? Yes. So I learned a few lessons. Of course. Now we're way more organized. We have we're core certified. We have a health and safety committee. We have we're all those things. We're organized. So we don't over commit first night. We do first night, second day, day after, day after, day after. And we're very much dialed in. You have to stagger that. Yeah, for sure. So Darren, you know, when we were having conversations before, you talked a little bit about some of the challenges you face coming in, taking over the business from your family. And one of the first challenges was you were told you had to move. Oh, jeez. Yes. Yes, you're right. How do we forget something like that? So my first day with The Black Dirt Company, and this is not a fabrication of the truth in any way. Right. My parents decided to get a shed, which was my office. Okay, so there's a desk. Luxury. Power. Luxury office. Right. Right next to the porta potties, right? And... Far to go. Yeah, it's important. Yeah, yeah. And there's an envelope on my desk and it was not opened. Right. But I think my parents maybe knew what it was. It was an eviction notice from the city of Spruce Grove. So for the last 18 years, my parents had what they considered a temporary permit. Where the city of Seuss Grove said, you're here temporarily because you can't be here forever. This is meant for something different. Probably at the time they wanted a hotel there. Right. Okay. And but 18 years have come and the city of Spruce Grove says, we're going to evict you and you have six months. And this was the first real thing that I was tasked with. Right. Right. Day one with The Black Dirt Company. And basically it was like this. So we panicked a little bit because how do you make money, run your business all while moving to another location? Right. Right. And so did you have another location? Not well, we didn't. But we figured it out. We found one. So we went to the Spruce Grove Industrial Park and started negotiating with the landowners, Norman Savan. And again, when that happened, my parents also happened to be in Yuma, Arizona. But luckily for me, they were motivated. But so was I. You get two motivated parties before you know it. You almost have a deal. And then I met with the senior administration, with the city of Spruce Grove, along with Jeff Acker and at the time, Mayor Houston. And I think they wanted to hear me out, but in the same breath, they wanted me out of that location. But after I said to them, I said, I have a place, I need time, give me two years, I'll make it happen. Right. Pretty bold statements. Yeah. And they're like, well, you know, we've heard this before, you know, maybe from us previously, maybe from other business owners within the community. You know, this is, you're just, you're just buying yourself some time. But we want you, we want you to know you need a place. So little did, little did they know. I literally had the industrial park in my back pocket. Wow. So day one, I met with the senior administration and the politicians. Day two, I met with the industrial park. Day three, I showed them an offer to purchase, right? Day four, they gave me the rubber stamp approval. Wow. Right, it was really, it was that quick. That's amazing. Because they were motivated to get us out of there, but they didn't necessarily want us to leave the Spruce Grove area. Right, yeah. But that's, but that, now that, that's, that door is open. That's the way it should be. That's the way government should be. I mean, just, they make it that easy for you. That's the way it's supposed to be. That's how business should operate with government. That's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. But, you know, if I didn't have that deal in my back pocket, I don't think it would have went so well. Exactly. Right. So they did, but they gave me a chance. Yeah. And so we didn't want to let them down either. And we wanted to make something, we wanted to build something better for us and myself. Sure. If we were to move forward. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it's a benefit to Spruce Grove, to have people like you, businesses like you existing there, because you could have gone anywhere else. You could have, now, you could have come to Acheson. Well, you know, but yeah, you know, maybe one day. I don't know. We're very close to Acheson. You're very close to Acheson, that's right. And I'm so, I'm actually so, I'm so impressed because a lot of my closest business connections, who are business owners, happen to be in Acheson. So I'm here all the time anyways. Sure. And we should mention that you are an associate member. Yes. Of the Acheson Business Association. Absolutely. So even though you're not here, you're part of us. Thank you. So that's fantastic. So, okay, so you moved the company, and you're moving snow in the winter, you're moving landscaping stuff in the summer, shows what I know about it, just landscaping stuff. And you're running a business. 100%, yeah. And you have how many employees? Well, when I started, we had probably more like seven to nine employees. Right. Now we have 32. Wow. Right? Up to 32. Yeah, yeah. Up to 32. We shrink in the winter, because there's real economics there. And then we get back into it in spring again, and we just do it over and over and over again. Yeah, pretty incredible. Yeah. So this is still a family business, Darren, because your wife is involved in the business as well. My wife is involved. She's our chief cultivating officer. Okay, so our slogan is- Our slogan is- What a great name. I like that. If you ever, if you knew my wife like some people do, it fits her. So Charlene Hinkel, she's my wife. She supports us. She's our chief cultivating officer. And she was a part of the strategic meeting where we came up with our slogan. So my parents came up with the slogan, You pick up where we deliver. Okay? It's a good slogan. But people know you pick up where we deliver. Now, people know this about the Black Dirt Company. So we've been so invested in our community as of late, especially over the last 15 years, that we wanted everyone to just resignate with what our morals and our values and are really where our growth has come from. So our strategic plan and with results. And my senior team, we decided to come up with, We Cultivate Community. So when you ask us, What do you do at the Black Dirt Company? Our response is, We Cultivate Community. I love this. Cause like once again, not spending thousands of dollars on a marketing company to get them to, you guys just, this is what we do. You come up with great, great name and a great slogan, and it's awesome. That's fantastic. Absolutely. So you cultivate community. And they do. Darren, you and your family are such wonderful community supporters, everything from local sports teams, all the way down to talk a little bit about, you know, what you did. This was pre-COVID, I believe, but some funding, was it for youth? Yes. So when I started with The Black Dirt Company, I was struggling with, we always have to pick our lane. What are we going to invest in? Where are we going to stick to? And I couldn't figure it out. And I was getting to the point where I was getting a little bit overwhelmed, a little bit confused. And so we decided to create, and it only happened for about four years, but we did amazing things in four years. I created a charity called Compete To Contribute. And I had some amazing people by my side, Josh Myshak being one of them, Cory Jodoin being another, Rosetta Taylor, Ian and Chantel, conduct. And it's amazing. We raised over $110,000 in four years by getting businesses to donate to the cause where kids, teams, youth groups would basically apply for the opportunity to compete, to contribute, to do good things in our community. Whether it's picking up garbage, whether it's doing a food bank drive, things like that. And so that was awesome. Then COVID sort of put an end to that. We haven't started it up again. I might not be the guy that starts that up again, but the door might be open for another younger executive group, group of executives to do something like that. Yeah. So anybody who's listening, younger or older, if this hits you, contact Darren, because I think that's phenomenal. That's really phenomenal. Absolutely. And so, how else are you involved in the community? You're doing some... So we, right now, just because we're so busy strategizing and trying to grow our brand and our business and our community presence, we are very involved with the Parkland Food Bank, right? That's great. We're very involved with things like kids' sport. Yeah. We're very involved with youth groups to this day. So Pack Hockey here in Spruce Grove, The Cougars Football Club. And just to name a few. Yeah. I love that. I mean, I think, yeah, Jennifer, you and I, that's what we love when businesses are just giving back to the community. Like, that's just huge. That's massive. So I don't think the community would be where it is without business. Right. And you know what? I will go as far as to say it is not your, you know, big retail global international businesses giving back. It's businesses like Darren and Charlene's that are giving back. 100% I agree with that. It's the small to medium-sized local family-run businesses that support this community. Yeah, and they're in there and they're giving back. And that's fantastic. Darren, you were mentioning, and so sort of on that vein, but I think in a very unique way, you were mentioning earlier when we were talking about mentoring and mentoring young business guys. Tell us about that a little bit, because I think that's fantastic. Well, yes, but you know, so I have a group of people that rely on me for just a sounding board, right? And when we talk about mentorship, sometimes you just need to talk to one business owner to another business owner, where they've seen that you've grown, they've seen that you've overcome some challenges or some hurdles. They know that you've been in a bad spot, a rock and a hard place before, once or twice before. And so that you get them alone, whether it's a coffee or a beer. And it's just the two of you, so you're in a safe spot. You can say whatever you want, it's never going to be used against you. And when you start sharing stories and advice, that's mentorship, right? I love that. I'm becoming more and more of a big advocate on that because I think, and you know, it's interesting, Jennifer, because I think in a way that's kind of what we hoped for the podcast was to tell the story behind the story and to allow, because there's business people out there going through the same stuff you went through Darren, like the same growth situations, the struggles, the same challenges. And they're listening to this going, I'm not alone. Somebody else went through this too. Because sometimes you get siloed a little bit and you think, am I the only one going through this? But you're not. And so listening to you, I think it's a major encouragement to people. Well, for sure. I mean, so I have no problem saying that my mentors right now, and I'm just naming some of them that come off the top. I have probably six or seven of them. They don't even know it. It's not even officially designated. Like you're my mentor. But Ed Stahl from Stahl Peterbilt, he's a mentor of mine. I've been watching that guy since I've gotten into business. And what he does is phenomenal. Cory Jodoin with Jen-Col, he's a guy that I rely on heavily. You know, it's hard for us to sit down and talk with our employees about these situations because of course, when you're the owner, you know, when you're insecure about something or uncertain about something, it's not something that you want to do and lead off a meeting with your staff saying, hey, I'm unsure about where we're heading. You know, you don't want that uncertainty within your company. So that's why mentorship is so important. Actually, sorry, Victor Morose, right, with Royal LePage. That man is an amazing person to just get ahold of, just to have a drink with, and listen to what he has to say, because it is smart stuff that comes out of his mouth. Experience, right? Iron sharpens iron. So that's fantastic. Well, Darren, this has been fantastic, and we can't thank you enough for coming on this podcast and sharing your amazing journey with us. But we do have a final question that we ask all of our guests. So Darren, what is the best piece of advice you've been given, either personally or professionally, that you carry with you to this day? Well, okay, this is, it's so simple, guys. It's so simple. The best piece of advice that I've ever been given, you just got to do you. Yeah. Because anytime you don't do that, it will show sooner or later. It will show up. Yeah. It will show up. Yeah. I like that. Just do you. Yeah. I mean, it's not perfect all the time, but just do you. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, that's what it is. It's pretty hard to fake your way through your own values. Yes, exactly. You know, and I, that's a great point because I think when you do that, people can read through that. Sure. They can see right through that. So they know when you're not being you, they know when you're trying to be something else. So I think that's fantastic. Well, so Darren, how do people find out about you? Do you have a website? We have a website. Tell us about that. That's easy. www.blackdirtcompany.com. We have social medias, right? We have Instagram, Facebook. We're big on those two platforms. Yeah, that's fantastic. So folks, in the spring and summer and fall months, if you're needing all that landscaping stuff, now you know where to go. And in the winter, I don't know what it's going to do this winter, but you know, businesses, if you need some snow removal, make sure you give Darren a jingle and get that on board. And Darren, I think that's amazing. What a great story you have. Your parents, are they... Well, my parents are still around. Are they in Yuma already? They're not. Not yet? That was their first phase of semi-retirement. Right. Now they're fully retired, I think. I think, and I say that because my dad always likes to surprise everybody with a new business venture of some kind, but basically, they're at the shuswaps all summer long. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's fantastic. Well, that's great. And that's great. You still have them around, and I'm sure you can lean on them when you need some advice or something. So that's fantastic. Well, what a great morning. What a great story. This kind of stuff just jazzes me. It excites me because I love to hear about business owners who just have, they sort of grab the bull by the horns and away they go. It's fantastic. We couldn't get better stories than we've had on this podcast. That's right. And I think at our gala, we had some fun with that. We sure did. We talked about all of our guests that we've had, and it's been great, and Darren's another one of those great guests. Did you tell everybody who won our podcast guest of the year? No, I didn't. So at the gala, we did an award for podcast guest of the year. The very first time, yep. Yes. And the podcast guest of the year for 2024 was Felix the Shop Cat from Bushell Transport. If you haven't listened to the Felix podcast, you need to go to the Felix podcast. You know what? I think Felix is the one that took us worldwide. Yeah, I think so. I don't know how, but the cat took us around the world. And so that was pretty amazing. And you know what was really neat about the gala is we had a lot of our guests at the gala on Saturday. Wasn't that fantastic? That was really cool. And we went through the whole thing of teaching everybody how to download podcasts and do all that. We'll see if our numbers spike a little bit or if they stay the same. Maybe they'll drop. I don't know. But anyway, that was kind of fun too. So we had a really great time. So thank you everybody. Thanks for listening. Hey, it's great having you listening to us. We really appreciate it. We're going to tell you in a couple of weeks. I think, Jennifer, I'm stepping out here. You're going to probably tell me. But we've got merch. We do have merch. We got t-shirts. We do. That are beautiful downtown Acheson t-shirts. We launched these at the Gala. That's right. We sold a stack of them. People thought it was a joke. I know. It's no joke. No, no, no joke. We actually have t-shirts. We do. And we've got our Coffee In The Park mugs. We do. So we'll figure out for the next podcast how that maybe if you're interested in a coveted t-shirt and mug. Where you can purchase that t-shirt. Yeah, where you can do that. And we'll even sign it if you want us to. I think they want us to. But anyway, of course they want us to. That's right. Anybody, everybody, thanks again for listening. And tell your friends, tell your neighbors, tell your enemies, tell everybody, wherever you get your podcasts. Or if you don't know how to do that, go to www.Achesonbusiness.com and you can find us there. Thanks everybody. Have a great week. We'll see you next time. Thanks everyone. Thank you.